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IF I WERE RYAN SAGER

...I think I would leave well enough alone, at least for now.

Sager opened up a bit of a can o' worms in this column in which he essentially slammed conservatism as the political faith of religious extremists, using CPAC as exhibit A that we're all a bunch of hardliners. That is a convenient argument from a libertine-libertarian point of view, but it's wrong. And Sager even mischaracterizes what he saw and heard at CPAC. I know because I was there, standing right next to him during one of the pivotal moments he describes in that column. He says:

Arrogance toward Democrats isn't the problem -- though that was everywhere, from Ann Coulter's conservative stand-up routine (kind of a Republican version of "You might be a redneck if…" delivered to wildly cheering fans) to the popular t-shirt slogan, "What blue states? I only see red?"

No, the arrogance that will prove problematic, ultimately, was that directed at the libertarian-leaning conservatives by the social conservatives. The message in that regard was clear: We Christians can do this alone, y'all who ain't down with J.C. best be running along.

That was the message when Tamar Jacoby of the Manhattan Institute, who was on a panel to defend President Bush's proposed immigration reforms (supported by no less a conservative institution than The Wall Street Journal), was loudly booed by the anti-immigrant crowd.

Sager is conflating the Christians at CPAC with the "anti-immigrant" crowd, when they are often not one and the same. And since when is it "anti-immigrant" to want to make sure terrorists and criminals can't just waltz across our borders to wreak whatever hell they please? But I'll leave those arguments aside.

Back to CPAC, and Sager's observations. First, what I saw at CPAC was less arrogance than happy confidence. The conservative wing of the conservative party helped keep a conservative (or at least a nominally conservative national security hawk) in the White House. It is helping keep Congress and most of the state governments out of the hands of raving moonbats, and it is on the way to helping preserve our most basic institution, marriage, from a full frontal assault on its very definition. CPACers were confident, and they had every right to be. Perhaps Sager sees arrogance because he belongs to a party that has absolutely no chance of winning a major office in his lifetime, and because libertarians by their own behavior marginalize themselves over and over again.

I don't say that with any glee, or even arrogance. I say it with a resigned sadness. I used to call myself a libertarian, largely because when it comes to the size of government that is what I am. But I and many, many people like me cannot abide libertarianism's suicidal embrace of anti-American foreign policy instincts and cannot abide libertarianism's embrace of every single leftwing assault on basic societal institutions. Libertarianism's basic anarchic instincts are often naive, selfish and childish, seldom allowing for any view of social good beyond narrow self-interest. I reached a point a few years ago when I could no longer reconcile libertarianism's more destructive tendencies with my basic moral beliefs, so I abandoned libertarianism as a philosophy.

But back to the Jacoby speech at CPAC, yes she was booed. I was standing right next to Sager and heard what he heard. But she was defending a lousy policy, the president's amnesty-by-another-name for illegal aliens. Libertarians, if they truly believe in a limited government, should abhor that policy because its end effect will be to grow government by allowing more non-citizens access to expensive social services, which will in turn drive up taxes, and so forth. Yes, it is true as Sager says that the Wall Street Journal's editorial page supports that policy, but it's also true that the WSJ is out of step with the conservative movement on that policy. The WSJ has long been out of step with most conservatives on that policy--it's an open borders supporter, when most conservatives favor controlled immigration and a tightened border. That doesn't make us a bunch of radicals, or "anti-immigrant." It just makes the Journal wrong on that policy. Unlike liberalism, conservatives are free to disagree among ourselves on specific policies as long as we adhere to a few basic principles.

In writing his CPAC column, Sager invited criticism from National Review's Ramesh Ponnuru. I've met Ramesh, and I've read his work over the years. In person he is the epitome of class, and in his writings he is as measured as they come. When you attract Ramesh's eye, you will find your arguments dissected with surgical precision. Ramesh doesn't "fisk"--he vivisects. Ramesh never wastes a word, and never tosses out a flippant or intemperate argument. He just cuts your arguments into tiny little pieces and leaves them to die.

So Ramesh reponded to Sager's column, here, and Sager retorts back, here, and Ramesh has (so far) the last word here. Read the whole exchange and see if you don't agree with me that Ramesh has the facts and the better logic on his side, while Sager is mostly making noise. As for Sager, he is essentially warning Republicans that too much dependence on social conservatives will cost them future elections. He apparently thinks any public nod to morality is a bad thing, and that it demonstrates "arrogance" that is damaging to Republican prospects. He may be right for all I know--the future is always uncertain. I heard more than one person say similar things during the course of CPAC, but interestingly none of those words came from conservatives or Republicans. They came from either self-described centrists, or liberals, or libertarians. Those three constituencies have one thing in common these days--a total lack of ability to command any national issue of any significance and carry it to electoral success. Libertarians are off in the weeds on most issues, liberals are chasing a dying light and centrists are swing voters who, if they support the war, vote Republican if they don't support the war, don't vote Republican. None of the three carry anything that passes for a compelling worldview right now. Those might be tough words, but they are also true words. Hopefully no one will consider me arrogant for pointing that out.

Amidst all of this interplay one thing is certain: Republicans would be making a foolish mistake to cast off social conservatives in favor of libertarians. Social conservatives make up a larger percentage of the voting public than libertarians, and tend to be more loyal voters over time because we are committed to transcendant issues, and on those issues we agree with the Republican party. We vote more than just the transient issue of the day, we vote long-term principle. Libertarians say they do too, but how they rank their voting principles is often impossible to discern. Social conservatives are not swing voters; there are enough of us to constitute a majority party's base, and there are enough of us to more than cancel out the votes of the hard left that the Democrats own and thereby form a net gain for the GOP. We know that, and the Republicans know that. What do we know about libertarians?

We know that they're all over the map on all issues, and that there aren't enough of them to form even a credible third party. We also know that they tend to take themselves too seriously as a political force. That doesn't mean Republicans shouldn't listen to libertarians. On matters of the size and scope of government, I wish the GOP would listen to libertarians more than it does. Libertarians often have great ideas for shrinking government, and they are deficit hawks at a time when that point of view is sorely needed in Washington. But on social matters and even on national security, listening to libertarians amounts to listening to a tower of babble. There is very little detectable principle among libertarians when it comes to social and national security policy, beyond a certain amoral "leave me alone" attitude. And often it is impossible to live by that principle, when your political opponents are using the courts the impose their will on you.

Just as Republicans might do well to listen to libertarians on some issues, libertarians would do well to allow social conservatives a place at the political table. We are citizens, and deserve a voice, right? Sager, if his column is any guide, will not allow us that place. He calls us intolerant and arrogant, but who is the intolerant and arrogant one here--the one who has numbers on his side but still lets others have their say, or the one who lacks the numbers but tries to make up for that with noise, name-calling and threats?

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Posted by B. Preston on February 22, 2005 9:10 PM
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Comments

“Just as Republicans might do well to listen to libertarians on some issues, libertarians would do well to allow social conservatives a place at the political table.”

As one of them there little l libertarians, I can only chortle at the notion of allowing or disallowing socons “a place at the political table.” Methinks thou doest protest too much.

Getting a peep of libertarian input into the Republican juggernaut is enough of a challenge without socons thinking we keep them from the table.

The Bush version of conservatism is big, intrusive government, which used to be somethng we bashed liberals with. On the cultural side, John Ashcroft showed what happens when religion gets its hands on the levers of power. It ain’t pretty. Here is just one of many examples. http://gcruse.typepad.com/the_owners_manual/2004/05/ashcroft_rebuke.html

What did Ashcroft actually do with all that power, eh? If you mention “Patriot Act” you will forfeit any right to be taken seriously. So give me some concrete example of what that ogre Ashcroft actually did that has you libertarians in such a lather about him.

Here’s what I think. You libertarians don’t like us social cons. You think we’re freaks, or authoritarians, or something else bad, so you try to marginalize us. But you’re only marginalizing yourselves. The liberals will never, ever agree to any of your ideas about shrinking government, but in pushing social cons you end up pushing your own good ideas to the fringe. When it comes to shrinking government, you’ll find a sympathetic ear in the GOP. Yeah, Bush has been a lousy president on that score, but do you think Kerry would have been better? Or that HRC will be better than Bush? If you do, you’re dreaming.

At CPAC there was much talk about reducing the size of government. It was mostly talk, true, and that’s too bad. But do you think you’d hear that kind of talk at a liberal confab? You wouldn’t.

Libertarians and conservatives agree on more than we disagree on. Most of our disagreements, in fact, boil down to seeing different ways to get to the same goal—smaller government. Social cons see a responsible citizenry as the way to get there, and to us that means moral values have to have a role. Libertarians largely ignore moral values in favor of strictly economic policies. But the point is we mostly want the same things. Libertarians and liberals are, or should be, diametrically opposed to each other. Libertarians want smaller government, liberals want bigger government. You won’t find much sympathy or help from the left. But you will find help on the right if you’d knock off the anti-Christian crap and just learn to get along and form a coalition with us.

Good post.

I don’t understand how anyone can argue that opposition to gay marriage is a political negative: the “defense of marriage” win over and over when they are put on the ballot.

Fran over at Eternity Road has a very insightful post today on this very issue. I really like his conceptual approach to rationalizing the issues.

Posted by John F. on February 23, 2005 4:12 PM

I find myself very puzzled by the congruence of opinion between people with whom I normally agree on a wide variety of subjects (Instapundit as an example; John Derbyshire at NRO is another, and I encounter it in many other places as well which at the present moment escape me) and the left (across its spectrum) over the ‘extremism’ and social threat posed by ‘FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTINAS” OR ‘EVANGELICALS’. We seem to be a terrifying group, but with the exception of those favorite poster-preachers that the Left finds so useful (Robertson, Falwell and Phelps) I know of no group that is extreme (accept to maintain the same positions on issues that used to be the cultural norm no more than 5 years ago. So far as I am aware we have not become more conservative or more extreme, but the consensus of the Left and many libertarians is that they have moved to a new level and somehow those that have not made the jump to homosexual marriage speed are primivitists and reactionary who wish to drag America back to the hellish days of 1990, when the thought of homosexual marriage was unthinkable by the vast majority of Americans.

I would ask the same question I did when we were all radical or extreme Right Wing Republicans and will be again during the next election cycle. Does no one have any obligation to define their terms. What exact policy or philospphical position makes me both an ‘Extreme Right Winger” and an “Extreme Evangelical/Fundamentalis). And are there any moderate Republicans or (much less likely) moderate Evangelicals. If so what do they look like, and how would I distinquish them from myself. I may not agree with the criteria used, b but at least it would be an intellectually honest argument.

I suspect I know exactly what makes me extreme, both to the Left and Libertarians - pro-life and anti-homosexual normaliszation. The latter is a much different thing from ‘hate’ or ‘phobia’ or one step away from another Matthew Shepard, but no one on the other side (and I mean many Libertarians as well as the Left) can admit that. It is too useful for them to have their code worded language. I accept this from the Left, how could it be otherwise. I am saddened that my natural allies on many things and people with whom I can even respectfully disagree are engaged in the same game.

Posted by James Crinean on February 23, 2005 4:40 PM

“So give me some concrete example of what that ogre Ashcroft actually did that has you libertarians in such a lather about him.”

How could you have read my comment without seeing the URL I posted there? Had you bothered to load it, you’d find a non-Patriot Act, concrete example of Ashcroft’s anti-federalism. The issue was settled correctly by the Ninth District court, but DOJ can’t leave it alone, so the USSC gets a crack at it this term.

“You think we’re freaks, or authoritarians, or something else bad, so you try to marginalize us:

I can see the liberals feeling marginalized, being almost totally out of power, but just how is it you are being marginalized? Do you think keeping religion out of secular government marginalizes one of the religions?

“But you will find help on the right if you’d knock off the anti-Christian crap and just learn to get along and form a coalition with us.”

You have your churches and Sunday schools to worship and teach your kids what you will. The necessity many Christians feel to infuse the government under which we all must live with their religion is wrong and will be fought. It is just one issue of many, though. And like most libertarians I know, I voted straight Republican primarily on national security issues.

Wasn’t this a conservative conference, not a Republican one? It’s kind of odd to me that libertarians go to a conservative conference and complain that there’s too many conservatives.

It’s one thing to argue that the Republican party should make room for libertarians; it’s entirely different to argue that the conservative movement should.

And while I consider myself somewhere between a libertarian and a conservative, I prefer to label myself as a conservative most of the time simply because I find libertarians to be more off-putting and arrogant. While I often agree with their positions, they seem to have this attitude that their positions are so obviously correct that no one could possible disagree. I think this leads to them overestimate their popularity, and then pout when people ignore them.

Many libertarian positions are simply not that popular. Personally, I wish more Americans wanted small government, but they just don’t. And a significant portion of Americans simply want some level of morality to be upheld (I have no problem with this).

Libertarians can criticize the Republic party for selling out on their small government principles, but you have to walk a fine line between sticking to your principles and winning elections. I think some of the libertarian arrogance comes from the fact that they can maintain their ideological purity. Well, congratulations, but good luck winning elections.

Posted by Jason on February 23, 2005 4:56 PM

Owner’s Manual,

You have this all wrong, guy. We Republican social conservatives/fiscal libertarians (I call them “heirs to the Founding Fathers”) do not want to impose our churches on the rest of everyone else (this is the reddest of red-herrings. I’m so looking forward to something with an infinitesimal amount of substance instead of this very empty screed).

We just don’t want unelected courts to tell any American, no matter who they are, that they have to submit to judicial decrees that are flagrantly unconstitutional, anti-historical and way beyond common sense.

You should check out Klein’s response to Sager in today’s Tech Central Station to get a sense of what the real issues are, and aren’t.

As for Sager, if he’s trying to decry arrogance, then he shouldn’t act arrogant. If he’s trying to decry noise, then he shouldn’t make so much, and have so little fact.

Finally, and no disrespect to Sager: he’s young. He’ll learn a few things in a few years. Compromise and working together are just those things that everyone has to do. Also, jeremiads need to have less heat and more light, and Sager doesn’t provide any.

One final thing (I promise): John Ashcroft has been one of the finest Attorneys-General the US has ever had. His reasoning on the Second Amendment alone should give him darn near unqualified support from libertarians (see Dave Kopel, libertarian-extraordinaire from The Independent Institute, a Libertarian think tank).

I’ll debate John Ashcroft with you another time, but one URL does not an argument make.

Posted by Aaron on February 23, 2005 5:04 PM

Aaron: Actually you do want to impose your church upon the rest of us. There are two big failings right now in our application of our founding principles; discrimination against gays and the drug war. The first is driven almost entirely by deist bigotry. (ok, not just christian). Understand this, gays are equal to straights. To deny them equal rights to marry, adopt, and serve in the military is not just wrong, it is un-American. The drug war has, regrettably, support from both “liberals” and “conservatives”. But it is the conservative law and order crowd that pushs it the most. There is no justification to punish a free person for the manner he gets intoxicated. We are a free people. The controlled substances act, the DEA, and all the prison cells in what used to be the land of the free can not take away Americans’ rights, they can only oppress free people.

Posted by synapse on February 23, 2005 5:24 PM

Synapse,

Actually, no, we do not wish to do that, although it’s obvious that you wish to impose (and, with 2-3% of the population, that’s pretty audacious) your extreme secularism on the other 97% of the population (including the majority who: 1. Re-elected President Bush; 2. Who are ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED to the government-cutting that the Republicans in Congress, and President Bush, sadly, and horribly, are wrong not to pursue).

As for the drug war, one can be against it (as National Review has been for decades, and it’s the premier conservative mag in America) and still be (1) For tolerance for gays in this country but (2) Want the American people to decide this (the whole gay “marriage” issue), via ourselves, and not by judges. And, by ourselves, I mean, plainly and simply, the American people, not just American conservatives.

So, que sera, if you want to continue your interesting fiction that the Constitution of Massachusetts, written by John Adams (no less), was intended to, via judicial (and unconstitutional) decree, actually create gay “marriage,” then you may continue in it, but for those of us who have studied law (including natural law), history, democratic processes and the Constitution - we shall wish you well but will not join you in doublespeaking “the smelly little orthodoxies.”

Sager, and you, synapse, are welcome to criticize anything you wish, but more facts, and less feeling, would be welcome along the way. Starting a mountain out of a molehill with your natural allies (conservatives of ALL stripes) is not the best way to go about this.

By-the-way, I look forward to libertarians looking towards the one area where the government is really out-of-control: the Supreme Court (and, I’m talking everything from the drug war to regulations to absurd rulings of partial-birth abortion).

I hope I don’t ONLY hear conservatives (continually) to rail against it (and, I’ve been waiting for two decades-and-a-half now).

Posted by Aaron on February 23, 2005 6:46 PM

There’s philosophical discussion to be had about how best should a people move towards humanity and justice. One might argue reasonably they foremost should vote upon it. This gives decisions the weight they need to be truly a part of society. When decisions are handed down from up high, there’s less gravity and respect for them. Should we have waited for southern racists to come around rather than striking down their Jim Crow? Why does the constitution exist, if not to provide guides for collective decision making? Principles are good to have. We’re all created equal, here in the US. If some percentage of the population doesn’t get that, and wants to discriminate against gays, then what to do? What would a person of principle done in 1850, arguing against the status quo? I hear your words echoing out of history, damn northerners trying to impose their will. Maybe we should have let them do their thing. Maybe it was a mistake to set the principle of taking control from local affairs. Ultimately the fair answer is government must treat people equally. What they do in their private affairs is up to them. There’s no crime in hating blacks back on your compound, but you can’t discriminate against them in hiring. Gays must be treated equally, though you are free to dream of the supernatural punishment you are sure awaits them. Likewise alcohol laws are a good example. A county can vote to be dry, but a person can always drink in his own home. Likewise it is and should be fine for a county or similar size organization to vote upon how commerce in drugs shall be regulated. But it is always OK for a free person to be intoxicated in the privacy of his own home. Or have a gun. Or have whatever kind of sex he wants with another adult. Buckley always has been a principled conservative. I subscribed back when his editorial called for freedom not drug war. A bunch of subscibers cancelled because of it. Good riddence! The Supreme Court has upheld the drug war, but has not imposed insult against freedom. That has come from our drug war-drunk congress and president. A final note, the GOP doesn’t cut government. It is growing by leaps and bounds. No child / Homeland sec / etc…

Posted by synapse on February 23, 2005 7:48 PM

Synapse,

You obviously haven’t read what I wrote, or you wouldn’t be spouting such nonsense (although, you did drop your arguments about John Ashcroft, so I guess I should be happy about that).

2-3% of the population which engages in a certain kind of behavior has no inherent, implied or any other express right to have that behavior endorsed, supported, protected or in any other wise championed by the Constitution of the US. They have every right to advocate for freedoms, but they have no right to claim that they have an INHERENT right, or a “fundamental” right in any way.

As for the neo-con(federate) baiting, I’m laughing. My forebears are from Chautauqua county, New York, though my Grandmother’s family did hail from Texas in the early 20th century.

You want to make a point, and want to get others towards yours: you could start right now by excising the (what you think is) anti-Christian rambling and engage in the topic at its substantive level.

One way to do this would be to reread Junk Yard Blog’s last line on this thread:

“Just as Republicans might do well to listen to libertarians on some issues, libertarians would do well to allow social conservatives a place at the political table.”

And, for emphasis (this includes neo-confederate baiting, also):

“We are citizens, and deserve a voice, right? Sager, if his column is any guide, will not allow us that place. He calls us intolerant and arrogrant, but who is the intolerant and arrogant one here—the one who has numbers on his side but still lets others have their say, or the one who lacks the numbers but tries to make up for that with noise, name-calling and threats?”

Good advice. Let’s all heed it, and continue to govern responsibly.

Posted by Aaron on February 24, 2005 4:57 PM

You’re a little quick to call “baiting” what is rather my examples demonstrating how private bigotry need not, and should not, coast into the public sphere. I suspect your upstate roots notwithstanding they struck a little close, though. Anyway the rights you dismiss are found in the preamble to our whole way of life here in the USA; We are all created equal, and all have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What don’t you get? Social conservatives have resisted the end of slavery, women’s sufferage, the end of Jim Crow, and now full equality for gay people. They have lost every prior stage, and they’ll lose this one. It is responsible to treat all people equally. It is right and moral to heed our founding principles of liberty and equality. End the drug war, and treat gay people equally. It is so easy. Yet also so hard.

Posted by synapse on February 25, 2005 10:57 AM
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