We gave them a lot after they attacked us and spent five years demonstrating just how cruel human beings can be. We gave them freedom and democracy. Those are pretty wonderful gifts. And we let them come over and take pictures any time they want. No wonder they don’t hold a grudge.

“And we let them come over and take pictures any time they want.”

My wife is Japanese. You might want to lay off the stereotypes.

I think it’s because while they may still be in denial about some aspects of the war, they understand that it ended the only way it could and have Japan survive as a nation.

That is a gross presumption that you must know many Japanese disagree with. The reason that “they aren’t nursing that grudge or plotting revenge” probably has a lot more to do with how the war began than how it ended.

Regardless, is a moral outrage to justify the killing of civilian noncombatants to protect the lives of soldiers, even if your highly dubious premise – that it was the only way to avoid a brutal battle over mainland Japan (we had to nuke Japan to save it) – were true. It was wrong in Hiroshima, it was wrong in Nagasaki, it was wrong in Tokyo and it was wrong in Dresden. All the excuses and revisionist history in the world won’t change the barbarism of intentionally targeting innocent noncombatants in war.

Shep, that you despise this country and its history is sad, but no surprise. But you really should study the likely effect invading Japan would have had. Did you not read the woman’s statment in the post—that children had been taught to fight our troops with bamboo sticks? Do you not know anything about the mindset that dominated Japan at the time? Do you not know that imperial propaganda persuaded women to throw their babies off Okinawa cliffs as our troops advanced, because they had been told that our troops would rape and pillage every woman and child they found? Do you know how many thousands died because of that one single lie? Do you not know anything outside your own opinions?

If we had invaded Japan, millions would have died. Millions. Truman had the choice of doing something terrible or awful, and he chose the one that saved the most American lives (and by extension, Japanese lives as well). That’s simply a fact. His choice was not an easy one, and you banging your spoon and shouting about it 60 years later doesn’t change one bit of it. Not one single, solitary bit.

Interestingly, I toured the Hiroshima bomb museum with my father-in-law. He remembers the war and its end. He was a little boy living across the bay from Nagasaki. As we walked through the museum, he would comment on this or that, about life in those times and how hard the war had made life for everyone in Japan. There was no bitterness in him about the bomb. None. Not every Japanese has that opinion, of course, and any mention of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (both of which I have visited) is bound to stir up a low level of controversy, but the fact is most Japanese aren’t bitter about it. They tend to be more bitter about our view of Pearl Harbor and what led up to the war, fwiw, if they’re bitter at all.

I’m really not interested in debating this until you actually demonstrate some level of knowledge on the subject, so don’t bother to comment without picking up a book or getting on a plane and seeing Japan for yourself.

Shep’s ignorance is understandable given the lack of general military service and experience among the younger generations and the wretched state of education in the US. In warfare when nation states mobilize their entire populations there are unfortunately no “innocent” civilians.

The scale and scope of the blood that would have flowed during an invasion couldn’t be imagined. The Japanese army was intact, over 65 divission equivalents were ready to defend Japan. The American intelligence services had underestimated the size and numbers of both the Japanese army and air force. In the case of the air force by a factor of 100%. At Okinawa 1 in 6 Japanese aircraft managed to hit a naval vessel causing more losses to the US Navy than it suffered in the entire preceeding period of the war and more than the military suffered at D Day.

The high command had decided to shift their attacks from warships to troop transports. Why does this matter, because it was estimated that 1,000 transports would be used. Remember the 1 in 6 ratio, why the Japanese had accumulated or built a total of over 12,000 aircraft. Even if the US air forces could have reduced the hit ratio by 200% the slaughter among troop transports would have been incredible.

I do not doubt that we would have invaded and won but the Japanese knew which beaches were going to be hit and fortified them accordingly. Tarawa and Omaha would have been like the Easter parade. Even US troops realized what an invasion would have met and there were instances of near mutiny among troops in Europe being informed they were to be transferred to augment the Pacific forces.

Shep is just a dullard and hates America. I wonder why he hasn’t left for Canada?

I lived in Sasaebo, Japan from 1977 thru 1981. These are my thoughts and experiences on Japan and the Atomic Bombs:

1. Most antipithy toward the U.S. eminates from Tokyo and decreases the farther you travel from there. Sasebo is about 100 miles north of Nagasaki. I was never accosted by anyone in Japan because of America’s use of the Atomic Bombs in 1945. Even during anti-nuclear protests at the U.S. Navy base in Sasebo.

2. I once went on a trip to Nagasaki and was visiting the Peace Park where a monument marks the spot over which the atomic bomb exploded. It was on a Saturday near lunchtime and as the small group of Americans I was with was walking thru the park, a Japanese family picnicing invited us to eat with them. (BTW - The Japanese family was feasting on Kentucky Fried Chicken.)

3. Keep in mind that from 1936 thru the end of WWII, the Japanese Imperial Forces were killing on average, 100,000 people (civilian and military) per month. Somewhere between 10-15 million Chinese died at the hands of the Japanese.

4. Also, keep in mind, that the battle of Okinawa had finaly ended a few months earlier at the cost of 50,000 Americans. Add on top of that the kamakazi fighters and the liberation of POW’s (military and civilian) in the Philippines and elsewhere. (If people knew of the conditions at these camps run by the Japanese, no one would take seriously the claims of torture in GITMO.)

5. There were many in the Emperor’s cabinet that were willing to continue the war at any cost.

6. The state of Japanese infrastructure had deteriorated so drastically by 1945 (due to needs for war material and Allied bombing), that almost all forms of metal were removed from Japanese homes, handgrenades were made of ceramics and, most importantly, famine was around the corner. Although 250,000 died from the Atomic bombs, millions would have died from the inevatble famine coming that winter.

7. This may sound crass and is not very PC, but if there is a choice between American lives and non-American lives, I will always pick American lives.

And another thing:

The blame for the deaths of Japanese civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshimo lays squarely on the shoulders of Emperor Hirohito. The Allies had made it perfectly clear that they would accept nothing short of unconditional surrender. The Japanese sent out many “feelers” for peace during 1945 and their only concern was to ensure that nothing would happen to the Emperor and his Seat in Japanese society. Over 250,000 civilians died because the Emperor was more concerned about keeping his palace and position for himself and his heirs than he was about the welfare of the Japanese people.

holy crap what a load of patriotic garbage. I’m ashamed to have read the whole thing.

One of the problems we have in looking back at an event like the nuclear bombing of Japan is, I think, the difficulty of understanding the historical context.

60 years back people didn’t even have television. When Europe was liberated and the death camps were discovered the shock of what the Nazis had done was profound. The Japanese had commited similar atrocities (although “smaller” in scale) in the rape of Nanking, the Bataan death march, and on and on.

Since there is no dispute that subduing the Japanese would have cost hundreds of thousands MORE casualties than the A-Bomb did the only argument that we shouldn’t have done it must be that we should have left the Japanese government in power. That wasn’t going to happen.

Oh and:

“I’m ashamed to have read the whole thing.”

I’m ashamed that after reading your posts here and in the other thread I attempted to read the drivel that is your blog. I’ll save everybody else the time; in addition to the usual inane blather of the looney left bsti’s site features reviews of movies where people weigh their “dick” and talk while giving “blowjobs”.

If anyone else goes there he’s liable to have a new record of 4 hits in a day - which could only encourage him.

I’m not interested in stereotypes. I do think that maintaining a sense of humor is necessary in today’s world. My response would be to “lighten up” a little bit. There is so much anger floating around the internet. I don’t care if your wife is Japanese. I’m sure she is a lovely person. Some of the most wonderful, lovely women in the world come from that part of the world. Do you want to use that fact to assume a holier than thou attitude. Fine. She’s your wife. You can use her in any way you desire. But personally, I don’t think I would bring mine to the table in that way.

Ha! I see BSTI’s still trolling. He used to be a regular over at my other blog, Random Nuclear Strikes.

I notice that Shep somehow manages to leave out the bombing of London in his little diatribe of how horrible it is to bomb civilian populations in time of war. Interesting exclusion, that - or perhaps I just missed it?

Shep, that you despise this country and its history is sad, but no surprise.

First of all, you can save your cheap, adolescent challenges to my patriotism for someone who gives a rat’s ass what you think about the subject. You don’t know me, what I have and am willing to sacrifice for my country, or jack sh*t about how I feel. You only know that I care enough not to let some right-wing jingoist excuse mass murder by the tens of thousands under the cover of loyalty to the motherland without comment.

I’m really not interested in debating this until you actually demonstrate some level of knowledge on the subject, so don’t bother to comment without picking up a book or getting on a plane and seeing Japan for yourself.

This may surprise you but visiting a museum isn’t exactly earning a Master’s in Eastern Studies. And I can walk Antietam 24-7 for the rest of my life and never really learn who did what to whom or why.

What’s really scary is that even a f*cking History Channel education would tell you that the Japanese were trying to find a way to surrender before the bomb and before the Soviets joined the war against them. And that Truman had a number of motives for dropping the bomb, including putting the fear of God into Stalin and justifying the enormous cost of The Manhatten Project.

Regardless, the fact that your response to the point that nothing excuses the military (any military) assault of civilian populations was to start making insults and more excuses, suggests that your most serious problem isn’t one with history but with ethics.

Shep: I suggest that you read the book Downfall, the author’s last name is Davis. In it, among other things, Davis discusses the attempts by the Japanese to surrender. These attempts were half-hearted at best. Again, their main concern was how to save the Emporer. The Allies had publicly stated that they would accept nothing short of unconditional surrender. If the Emporer could go on the radio a few days after Nagasaki and surrender publicly, then why couldn’t he have done so in July?

Shep: No one gives a rat ass about you because you’ll never be worth the time or effort one pays to roadkill. Your ignorance is rampant and apparently elevates with each post. One doesn’t care what you think about the military killing civilians I care about what the soldiers think about the actions those civilians do to keep their military in the field, operating and killing Americans.

Apparently your IQ is at the level of broccoli, no insult intended to vegetables, that you have no understanding of the military, economics and have not bothered to remedy your ignorance.

I suggest you’d find intellectual company more to your liking at Kos or the DU. They cherish the great intellects of the fever swamps of the Left at such sites.

So spare us your adolescent snivelling vomit that you hope to foist on adults. Better yet go act as a human shield for the terrorists.

One doesn’t care what you think about the military killing civilians…

So you agree with the terrorist’s methods as long as they put on uniforms? Do you also sympathize with their justifications for murder?