Unbelievable. Make sure these images are saved somewhere so that when people start blaming the feds, the recriminations can be pointed back to where they belong: at the local level.

They’re on my server.

See this link for details on how many vehicles the RTA had as of May, 2005= 364 busses and 40 vans/taxis. why weren’t these used? Link

Characteristics of System

Vehicles: Fixed route buses: 364; Fixed route streetcars: 42; Paratransit vans and taxis: 40

Take a closer look at the pictures. Its the same bus depot. You can tell by the position of the buildings and the as well as the grouping of some of the buses. Agree with your overall point though.

I think you’re right. I probably screengrabbed the wrong one.

I can only shake my head and sigh. I’ve allready seen one blurb on the net stating (anyone else who saw it please correct if I get it wrong) to the effect that it was decided not to use the busses due to practicality issue? I won’t fully condemn the Mayor or the Governor till all facts are released but if nothing else their staffs failed miserably. This was a terrible disaster but was also a “slow motion” disaster that allowed some time to react. The fact that one young man had the common sense to simply go to a school bus yard, drive off a buss and then load it full and drive to Houston says much about the well paid planning staff of New Orleans.

Before you pass judgement, and I understand lots of things weren’t handled correctly—

Make sure your Google Earth images are recent. Some of them can be from 3 weeks ago.

What Rebecca said. How recent are these images?

These are in the Katrina section. They’re after the flood. Google has been adding them frequently. You can check for yourselves, and in fact I recommend that you do. You might find more buses while you’re looking. The link is in the post.

This image is Google Maps update that was taken post flood- notice the water everywhere.

Rebecca That is a post storm photo. Its from overlay 24427963. The address is 2817 Canal Street a NORTA site. Also notice how clever they were to save their cars. Jim

Sorry to dupe from my previous comment, but I’m slow. Last time, promise:

The mayor should have evacuated people on those buses. But there is plenty of blame left to go around:

Why did DHS and FEMA not know about the convention center until Thursday, when the media had been reporting on the seriousness of the situation there since Tuesday?

Why did President Bush wait until Wednesday to fly back to Washington when previous administrations (Clinton, Bush Sr., Nixon) made a point of being in Washington before major hurricanes made landfall?

There have been reports that local groups have tried to make rescue efforts but have been rebuffed by FEMA officials. Are these reports true? If so, who should be held accountable for such idiocy? Is that Nagin’s fault, too?

Further, the Department of Homeland Security’s National Response Plan, available in full on the Department’s website, explicitly states that there are two kinds of disasters: Regular old incidents, where the federal response is limited to providing requested aid to state and local authorities, and Incidents of National Significance:

“When an incident or potential incident is of such severity, magnitude, and/or complexity that it is considered an Incident of National Significance according to the criteria established in this plan, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in coordination with other Federal departments and agencies, initiates actions to prevent, prepare for, respond to, and recover from the incident. These actions are taken in conjunction with State, local, tribal, nongovernmental, and private-sector entities as appropriate to the threat or incident. In the context of Stafford Act disasters or emergencies, DHS coordinates supplemental Federal assistance when the consequences of the incident exceed State, local, or tribal capabilities.”

Further, it states:

“The President leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all Incidents of National Significance.”

The NRP is new in December 2004, was signed by the full cabinet and is currently, supposedly, fully implemented, superseding all previous national policy on disaster response. In other words, in an incident of this scope, it is the policy of the United States, put in place by this administration less than a year ago, that the federal government bear the primary responsibility for prevention, planning, response, and recovery.

Go read it for yourself: Link

Further, the governor of Louisiana sent a letter to President Bush on August 28th, informing him that she expected Hurricane Katrina to “be of such severity and magnitude that effective response will be beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments”

Link

Here is the NOAA original.

Anyone have the capability of plotting these locations (with estimate number of buses) on a general map of NO, as we make progressing locating more bus stations?

The following may provide some redundancy, however, here are some wide views and a few close-ups for rooftop counting.

What other vehicles could have been put use? Wouldn’t the city and other nongovernment outfits have fleets of vans and larger vehicles?

—

Buses: Two parking lots East of Superdome (wide view) Link

Florida Avenue and Interstate 10 (Peoples and Abundance streets - irony?) Link

Almonaster Blvd/Interstate 10 and Louis St ramp(Chicasaw Street and Desire Parkway) Link

Parking lot Northwest of Superdome (wide view) Link

—

New Orleans Regional Transit Authority: 364 Buses plus 68 “Demand Response” vehicles (in 2002 National Transit Database) Link

—

It also looks like the RTO buses were deployed, but only to move people to the “shelters of last resort” and not to safer ground outside of the city.

Mayor Nagin issues mandatory evacuation for New Orleans Link

As of 9:30 a.m., Mayor Nagin has issued a mandatory evacuation for New Orleans. […] The city has set up ten pickup areas to take people to emergency shelters. RTA buses will be picking up citizens for free and take them to these shelters.

—

Nagin orders mandatory evacuation in face of Katrina Link WWLTV.com 10:11 AM CDT on Sunday, August 28, 2005

Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.

He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.

Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing.

—

Flood Projection Map Link

—

Impact of Katrina - NY Times series of maps and images Link

From overseas, it seems the bush haters who run the media are still ignoring your photos. However, as I noted on my blog, they are also ignoring the fact that the majority of refugees are being cared for by friends, relatives, and local charities, and that in my experience, a lot of the help is coming from small churches loading up the church vans with supplies and youth group volunteers…and heading to areas that need help. But of course, they are right wing fundamentalist hazi conservatives so would never get on CNNI..

It seems the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. Typical.

Nagin says that the CIA is going to kill him. He has snapped and he should look into getting a nice room in a crazyhouse. Link here

Jason, you may have a point that the first run of this new RESPONSE plan may not have gone as smoothly as it could have. In all fairness, it’s a plan less than a year old. Additionally, It’s RESPONSE issues you cite. Where are not talking response here, we are talking evacuation planning, which I assume is the point of the initial post.

You wanna talk slow. Mid-day the 26th, National Hurricane Center folks warned that Katrina was gonna turn towards gulf coast and strengthen. The next day (27th), the NHC all but told everyone that Katrina would hit NO directly as a CAT-4 storm. It wasn’t till the next day that mandatory evacuations were issued for NO. That gave about 20 hours to evacuate a city of 500,000. Good friggen luck. All these pictures show is that there were at a minimum 500 busses (and untold other vehicles) that could have been used. I suspect there was only time for one trip at that point, but figure 50 (minimum) per bus, and your talking 25000 people that could gotten out before hand, and I venture to bet that the total could’ve been raised towards 40000 or more once everyone saw the government getting serious and decided to get out of dodge too.

By the way, the evacuation order was issued BEFORE the govnr’ requested federal assistance so it was still a state issue at that point.

There are pretty specific plans already in place that govern evacuation and Nagin, the govnr’ all had this at their disposal in the form of the Southeast Louisiana Evac Plan Supplement”

Link

Right away in Part I GENERAL (3rd para down) it states:

The overall strategy for dealing with a catastrophic hurricane is to evacuate as much of the at risk population as possible from the path of the storm and relocate them to a place of relative safety outside the projected high water mark of the storm surge flooding and hurricane force winds.

In Part II: SITUATIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS (page 13) it lists assumptions and it outlines things that should be assumed (but for the dummies, we’ll spell it out) during an evacuation. #5 clearly states;

The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

Furthermore Part IV: PART VI: STAGING AREAS / LAST RESORT REFUGE (page 29), it’s pretty damn simple:

The definition of a staging area is a central location, easily accessible to those ambulatory people who are in need of transportation to a shelter. 1. Residents who have no means of transportation will be directed to the staging areas. 2. Transportation vehicles will be pre-positioned to transport residents to shelters. 3. Once the evacuation routes are closed, the staging areas will become Last Resort Refuges.

By the way shelters (outlined in Part V) are located OUTSIDE the area at risk.

Fascinating stuff, I live no where near NO, and I picked up on the gist of this simple document in about a half hour. To bad the local officials down there didn’t read it over. It cost a lot of lives. How sad.

Comprehensive Plans ANNEX I: HURRICANES Link

Evacuation

The safe evacuation of threatened populations when endangered by a major catastrophic event is one of the principle reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan.

The thorough identification of at-risk populations, transportation and sheltering resources […] and the establishment of the management team that will coordinate not only the evacuation but which will monitor and direct the sheltering and return of affected populations, are the primary tasks of evacuation planning.

[…]

Conduct of an actual evacuation will be the responsibility of the Mayor of New Orleans in coordination with the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness, and the OEP Shelter Coordinator.

The timely issuance of evacuation orders critically impacts upon the successful evacuation of all citizens from high-risk areas. In determining the proper time to issue evacuation orders, there is no substitute for human judgement based upon all known circumstances surrounding local conditions and storm characteristics.

[…]

The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed.

[…]

B. Issuance of Evacuation Orders

The person responsible for recognition of hurricane related preparation needs and for the issuance of an evacuation order is the Mayor of the City of New Orleans. Concerning preparation needs and the issuance of an evacuation order, The Office of Emergency Preparedness should keep the Mayor advised.

[…]

[The] City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways.

[…]

Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.

> Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less

> Special Needs Evacuation Order: 8-12 hours after Precautionary Evacuation Notice issued

> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less

[…]

The evacuation must be completed before the arrival of gale force winds. Evacuation should also start when school is not in session and when there is at least eight (8) hours of daylight included in the evacuation time allowed.

[…]

V. TASKS

A. Mayor

• Initiate the evacuation.
• Retain overall control of all evacuation procedures via EOC operations.
• Authorize return to evacuated areas.

[…]

D. Regional Transit Authority

• Supply transportation as needed in accordance with the current Standard Operating Procedures.
• Place special vehicles on alert to be utilized if needed.
• Position supervisors and dispatch evacuation buses.
• If warranted by scope of evacuation, implement additional service.

[…]

Shelter demand is currently under review by the Shelter Coordinator. Approximately 100,000 Citizens of New Orleans do not have means of personal transportation. Shelter assessment is an ongoing project of the Office of Emergency Preparedness through the Shelter Coordinator.

[…] In the event that shelters are opened, people who go to their nearest listed location may find, for one reason or another, that the facility is not open as a shelter, forcing them to seek an alternate location.

——

1. The Mayor is responsible for preparations and for execution of the Hurricane emergency plan.

2. The Regional Transit Authority was tasked with supplying and dispatching evacuation buses.

3. The Orleans Parish School Board was involved in the emergency plan to provide stageing locations and shelters. No mention of buses.

4. The Transit Authority was tasked with implementation of additional services if needed; where school buses and other vehicles in the inventiory of available assetts?

5. The need for transportation was quantified by some means: the estimate was 100,000 lacking personal transportation.

6. The plan provided the specific guideline: mandatory evacuation 48 hours before the hurricane makes landfall.

—-

The Evacuation Driving Time Formula was posted on the evacuation route map: multiply regular driving time x 4.

Image

Assuming 500 buses had been dispatched with around 48 hours notice, and the destinations were at least 5 hours away, and a continuous stream of buses had been on the road, the plan could have allowed for 3 or 4 trips per bus. That would be about 1500 bus loads x 50 people or a rough capacity to move 75,000 people from danger to safer ground. Back of envelope.

Does that align with other evacuations that were done successfully along the coast?

Absolutely. The first line of my comment was: The mayor should have evacuated people on those buses. It’s undeniable.

However, the fact that he didn’t get the people out was immediately apparent, before the hurricane hit. Did DHS not notice on Sunday that the single most important aspect of their disaster plan had not been executed? What’s the backup plan when the city isn’t completely evacuated? Did they have one?

This is where they begin to share the blame: they showed no leadership when it was desperately needed. They could not improvise when the playbook got tossed out the window. Frankly, until Thursday afternoon, it didn’t even look like DHS was in the game.

And this is where Bush begins to share the blame. Why wasn’t he flexible enough to realize that his speech in California on Tuesday was less important than getting the situation in New Orleans under control? Why couldn’t he make the connection between the mayor’s failure to evacuate the poor and the potential for a bad situation to turn into a cataclysmic one? How can he stand up in front of a camera and say nobody could have foreseen the levees breaking when the nightmare scenario has been predicted all along?

My point is not that it’s all Bush’s fault, or it’s all DHS or FEMA’s fault… my point is that in a calamity this big, there’s plenty of blame to go around, and it should go around. This isn’t politics, this is a wakeup call. Government, at all levels, failed us. Who can say it won’t fail us again?

Here are 55 more school buses:

Link

Bellville St. between Pelican St. and Patterson Dr.

Heres another photo you might want to use. It is estimated to have between 300-400 buses in it.

Link

It may not have looked like the DHS was not taking actions, but that is more perception than reality. It tooks something like 9-10 days to get boots on the ground in the previous disaster in Florida. This time it has taken maybe 5 days which I think is remarkable considering the unprecedented logistical problems.

The biggest problem has been in preparations and adjustments locally and to the extent that this could have been assessed quickly, I think it was. Early on the Superdome and the Convention Center were known to be undersupplied and ill-equipped to accomodate the very large crowds. How long did it take for the Astrodome plan to kick-in? A day maybe two?

But, again, nothing appears to have been done to salvage some of these buses. In these matters there really is only so much hand-holding that DHS and the President can be expected to do. Local knowledge of the local assets is absolutely key to improvisation when survival is the goal. Look at the very weak support for the invalid in the hospitals. They should have been moved at the recommended evacuation order, yes? Who got them out and over-compensated for the breakdown locally?

The spanner in the works was the meltdown in communiations. That destroyed the command structure. Fixing that was priority one which at that point would have been very tough given the urgency and the masses of people made vulnerable.

Another you may find interesting from Dec. 2000

Link

And one more… Remember this:

WWUS74 KLIX 281550 NPWLIX

URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA 1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED

HURRICANE KATRINA A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED STRENGTH…RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS…PERHAPS LONGER. AT LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL…LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL. PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE…INCLUDING SOME WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY…A FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD…AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS…PETS…AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS…AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING…BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WARNING IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR HURRICANE FORCE…OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE…ARE CERTAIN WITHIN THE NEXT 12 TO 24 HOURS.

ONCE TROPICAL STORM AND HURRICANE FORCE WINDS ONSET…DO NOT VENTURE OUTSIDE!

From that Dec 2000 article that loboinok linked:

If it were left to residents and city officials, the status quo would prevail. One city official says of the flooding and subsidence, “We are below sea level and we do get floods sometimes, but it’s not a real serious problem. You can still purchase flood insurance.” Another city official expressed faith in the current levee system.

Penland’s frustration with this attitude is apparent. “These are things I’ve been preaching for a number of years. This town has never planned ahead. They’ve always reacted and not pro-acted.”

WTB:

The response to Andrew that I assume you’re referring to was criticized even then as way too slow, which is part of the reason Bush Sr. lost Florida in 1992. That was 13 years ago, and we’ve had four years of Rumsfeld, whose stated mission in life is to make the military leaner and more agile. As a benchmark, the response to Dennis last year took only hours. While the logistics of the situation here are quite different, I think its disingenuous to suggest that 5 days is necessary to move what would have been a solid down payment on a show of force anywhere, much less our own backyard. We didn’t need full force right away - chopperfuls of MPs to prevent looting should have happened on Monday or Tuesday.

The Astrodome plan started Wednesday, but didn’t go into full tilt until Thursday and Friday. The last evacuee from the Superdome got on the last bus just today. This means that if the plan had been in place before the hurricane hit, everyone would have out by Wednesday or Thursday. How many lives is that? As far as the convention center goes, FEMA and DHS didn’t even know about it until Thursday, even though it had been broadcast on the networks since Tuesday. That’s just absurd.

As far as the hospitals go, Chertoff and Brown as late as Thursday were saying that they understood the hospitals to be handling the situation well. It wasn’t until Friday that they were finally evacuated. It seems odd to suggest that you need special local knowledge to know where hospitals are, especially when national news organizations were able to find them just fine.

The communications failure is a huge issue here, no doubt. I’m sure many lives could have been saved if the communication systems hadn’t failed. But when television viewers know more than DHS, then there’s something seriously wrong that goes beyond communication local police losing radio capabilities.

You spoke of improvisation. What sort of things do you imagine could have occured?

When I mentioned local knowledge I was referring to things like pharmaceutical supplies that at least one hospital found they needed. Same goes for the house-to-house rescue efforts. There are supplies in the city but you can’t expect anyone but locals to have brainstorms on how to make-up for the shortfall in the other prepartions, along these lines.

There were probably plenty of state level obstacles that arose on a politicla and b’cratic level that have nothing to do with deployment of MPPs and copters. It will take a couple of months for all of this to be revealed. I’m gonna stop speculating further on specifics.

—

Regarding school buses, the “renegade” busload used one of the abandoned yellow buses of the Orleans Parish School system. They pooled their cash to buy some essentials and to buy some gas.

Images

School bus yard at Abundance and Peoples Streets Link

Greyhound depot on Loyola Ave (next to Superdome) Link

More buses on Howard Avenue location (at Salcedo Street) Link

More buses perhaps on another Howard Ave location? (Greyhound?) Link

Ok…for get politics for a sec…Google freaking rocks!!!

Ok…for get politics for a sec…Google freaking rocks!!!

What great information. Thank you. Before I saw these pictures and read the details of the plan that Mayor Nagin ignored, I was blogging about the fact that private cars are not the way to evacuate a major city, and that the mayor should have commandeered the city’s own busses. Link We must pin some of the blame for this debacle on the political weakness of the local politicians. They did not have the political strength to pull off forcing the population to evacuate, and commandeering city vehicles.

MCG Link

“Frankly, until Thursday afternoon, it didn’t even look like DHS was in the game. And this is where Bush begins to share the blame.”

Actually, I believe it was federal assets that were primarily involved with the rooftop rescues (i.e. Coast Guard and such). In fact, they seemed to be the only visible official presence in NO, aside from some odd shots of NOPD officers joining the looting.

Ultimately, I think we agree on the “plenty of blame to go round” thesis, but still it is a matter of degree. Bush should/will get some blame, right now MSM is giving him ALL the blame. His culpability PALES in comparison to some.

Let’s look closer at one small aspect, shall we. I’m talking the ultimate death toll of this thing. It’s likely top reach up to 10,000. It is an absolute undeniable fact that the overwhelming majority of deaths in a hurricane are due to drowning as a result of the storm surge and resulting flooding. In the end, given the significant water component in this case, that will likely also be the case in this disaster.

The Hurricane struck during the day on the 29th. The levee’s failed and rapid (flash) flooding swamped the city early on the 30th. It’s likely that, when all is said and done, the overwhelming majority of deaths had occurred by the afternoon on the 30th (or 24-36 hours after the storm hit). Despite what the MSM is spoon-feeding us, it’s likely that from that point forward, while conditions sucked REAL BAD, the mounting death toll slowed considerably to perhaps 200-250 a day. It’s likely that from mid-day on the 30th till now, perhaps something less than 700-800 died from dehydration, trauma or other civil unrest. Don’t get me wrong, this number sucks something awful, but it pales in comparison to the number that likely died in the immediate aftermath of the disaster.

What’s the point in all this? Federal assets were continually trickling in and didn’t begin to ramp up significantly until around noon Thursday (1st). That’s about 40 hrs after the disaster started. Should it have been faster? Like you, I think it was too slow. But how much? Given the overwhelming logistical complexity of this disaster, I think it unreasonable to expect the significant response to start much before 48 hours (or Wednesday AM). That’s like 24-28 hours earlier than it actually did. In that time, while you probably had untold suffering, probably less than 300-500 human lives were loss. Contrast that with the thousands that that drowned in attics and alleyways that should have/ could have gotten a lift “outta dodge” on one of those busses before the wind and water started flowing in. Like I said, it’s a matter of degree.

“The communications failure is a huge issue here, no doubt. I’m sure many lives could have been saved if the communication systems hadn’t failed. But when television viewers know more than DHS, then there’s something seriously wrong that goes beyond communication local police losing radio capabilities.”

Is this an understatement or what. For whatever reason, lack of real leadership I suppose, the NOPD performed abysmally as a whole. Sure there were countless individual acts of heroism by individual officers, but as an organization, it was aweful. Sure the task was a difficult one, but the speed at which the city declined into anarchy was frightning(Contrast NYPD on 9/11 and right after). We have to be able depend on local LE to maintain order until the Calvary (military) arrives. There were 1500 officers in NO (and probably no more than 70000-90000 live people). I think many knowledgeable police officials will agree. A well-trained force with 1500 officers with good command and control should be able to maintain SOME measure of control for 36-48 hours even in the direst circumstances.

Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing but compassion and sadness for the individual officers that were “hung out to dry” and left to “wing it” in this time of crisis. It the leadership I take umbrage with, and given the fact that hundreds quit during the crisis, they must agree. How sad.

How many people could comfortably fit into an empty semi-trailer? Especially at the slow speed of the evac it would have been fairly safe.

It’s an emergency. Any transportation could have been used. So, using satellite images, how many RYDER and U-HAUL trucks are sitting on lots also under water?

I’m willing to bet HUNDREDS.

I ran out of ketchup at dinner last night. It must have been Bush’s fault. It’s in style now to blame him for everything.

The fact is that rescue efforts were delayed and thwarted because of the inept response of local and state officials, and the lawlessness of some in New Orleans. When they needed to pull together, they instead turned on each other. Disgusting behavior.

“The fact is that rescue efforts were delayed and thwarted because of the inept response of local and state officials, and the lawlessness of some in New Orleans. When they needed to pull together, they instead turned on each other. Disgusting behavior.”

Another excellent point Bill… You hear so much crap about “how can we be able to do food drops and in Indonesia within a couple days, but not be able to do it in our own country”. I’m afraid the ugly truth will probably be - we physically had the ability, but sadly could not, due to the degree of civil disorder and lack of a functional security presence (police) on the ground.

You simply cannot just drop water and food on a crowd of 20,000-30,000 thirsty, hungry and desperate people unless there is a functioning security force (generally local police in the early going) and organized distribution elements. To do so would invite sheer mob mayhem on a scale even more drastic then what we saw. Imagine 20’000 stressed out people fighting over a few cases of MRE and bottles of water with no semblance of organized distribution or security. I shudder at the mere thought. I suspect the federal authorities understood this and wisely choose not to worsen the situation with simple food drops. Better to wait a day for troops to arrive and restore order.

The failures of local officials to plan, implement and restore ANY measure of control (which is not only expected, but required of them) in the immediate aftermath caused a situation that delayed the federal response.

Pleeeasse! Don’t you know how pathetic this all is. I’ll try my hardest to go with you on this one and let’s say that the Mayor shared a very small piece of the responsibility for what went wrong. But, really, the stark truth is that Bush’s administration were incompetent. They were slow and you know it. This desperate searching for flooded yellow buses in New Orleans is pathetic. I’ll just point out the massive difference in time scales between the response times you are asking from a mayor (with relatively meagre resources in the middle of a hurricane with thousands of people trying to get out and with the drivers all over the place and themselves in the middle of a very scary situation) and the President of the United States (with the US military and all the resources of a fully composed country at his beck and call): half a day, a day (??) versus three, four or five days of blissful inactivity. I know some of you are going to be really angry that I wrote this but please sometimes there just comes a time where you have to be honest and hold your hand up and say “Our guy messed up” and take the flack that is coming. I know you all want to insulate yourselves from this with a nice blanket of pictures of a few hundred flooded out yellow buses in New Orleans (How many people would they have been able to get out anyway?) but is that honest? By the way, if you want to engage in petty party political defence then look at Clinton’s budgets and FEMA. That at least would be meaningful rather than this pathetic charade!

If you want to check out what stripe of a pinko I am, my corrected url is below.

And again we get people bashing Bush for assuming Ray Nagin and his administration were competent.

New Orleanians should have kept electing doofus mayors like Moon Landrieu — then nobody would have made the mistake of expecting the local authorities to have even half a clue.

Your original picture shows the Phillip Randolph Facility.

RTA offices RTA Administration Building 6700 Plaza Drive New Orleans,LA 70127 RTA A. Phillip Randolph Facility 2817 Canal St. New Orleans,LA 70121 Link

check it out here: Link

I hope that wasn’t a reply to my point. Ie. when you said : “again we get people bashing Bush for assuming Ray Nagin and his administration were competent.” I am not bashing bush because I assume Nagin was competent, I am bashing Bush because he was incompetent. It is staring you in the face. The commander in chief must be quickly across these issues, taking into account the inadequacies of local administration and protecting the people promptly, not five days later. That is what would happen in any other developed country.

When public officials cuss and cry on TV we know they don’t know what the hell they’re doing. This is particularly true of the police superintendent and mayor of New Orleans, and the governor and a U.S. Senator from Louisiana.

Folks, the disaster is just getting started. All over the city, out of range of the cameras on Canal St, thousands of people are trapped without food or water.

They are already beginning to die and thousands more will die every day in the days ahead.

There must be an immediate house to house search of more than 100,000 houses over hundreds of square miles.

This will take thousands of boats and needs to start right now. Fortunately there are a million boats in South Louisiana and there would be thousands of eager volunteers but it needs to be organized right now.

The suffering at the Superdome was completed un-necessary. Plenty of local resources were at hand and were just left idle.

But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. The real disaster is unfolding all over the city. The means are at hand to stop it. Let’s go!

Jason, Bush had gone to the La. governer and asked that they be allowed to take over on late Friday night (the 26th) and was rebuffed. In fact Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government. It seems that they felt that when things went wrong the bushies would blame it on the local officials. Go figure. Didn’t ask for outside help till Weds. This was reported in todays Washington Post by the way.

Buyo, there’s a post and three dozen plus comments here already providing chapter and verse on the incompetence of the mayor of NO and the governor of LA. Simply hopping up and down and screaming that it’s all Bush’s fault just ain’t gonna cut it as an argument. Even less so is basing that claim on the theory that being President makes one omniscient and omnipotent.

Stop and think for a moment. You leftistas are already in permanent spittle-flecked rant mode calling President Bush a fascist Hitlerian dictator. Do you really want him to be able to just walk in, declare an elected state governor incompetent, and send in the military to take over?

There’s a new message board/support group for Katrina. www.katrinatalk.org Come over and give some support and get some, too. Blog authors—would you mind adding a link? It will be helpful to people.—Thanks

“Do you really want him to be able to just walk in, declare an elected state governor incompetent, and send in the military to take over?” Yes, he probably does, because that what they would do to every Red State. ;)

Can’t consider that the response resources are removed from the direct impact zone of hurricanes… to preserve those resources from destruction, right Buyo?

Can’t consider that those responding resources would then have to return through a zone where every source of gasoline has been exhausted by fleeing civilians… slowing those resources’ re-entry, right Buyo?

Can’t consider that those responding resources would then have to return through a territory the size of england that has lost power (because it takes power to run gas pumps even if they had gasoline with which to refuel), right Buyo?

Can’t consider that Federal law prevents the President from federalizing local law enforcement, or that the Governor herself balked at giving the President authority over her National Guard units because of political considerations, right Buyo?

FEMA may be to blame for trusting the local officials to have put together a functioning response team; or that a local government and local police force that are the most corrupt north of the Mexican border could fulfill their roll in the “Ultimate Disaster”.

Obviously, FEMA can’t trust local officials to respond effectively and need to be funded so as to commandeer all local government rolls when disasters strike, right Buyo? And the President is at fault when it doesn’t…

Wilky, I addressed your point on the other thread. The power struggle you’re referring to didn’t take place on the 26th, it took place on the 2nd.

Link

Again, I want to reiterate my motivation for posting here. Blaming the mayor is fine. He deserves it. But exclusively blaming the mayor does nothing to fix the problems that will affect the rest of us the next time a major disaster hits. We should focus on the federal response, we should be perfectly willing to address the blame that belongs to the feds, because along with our own local governments, that’s the part we can fix so this doesn’t happen again in the future.

WTB, as far as improvisation goes: the major aspect of the plan to avoid catastrophic loss of life was that the city be evacuated. It was clear as of Sunday that the poor and sick were not being evacuated as planned. The improvisation should have immediately, right then, began focusing on what was going to be the biggest problem if the worst case came to pass: large numbers of people without food or water spread throughout the city. Start focusing on figuring out where these people are going to congregate. Figure out that if the capacity of the known shelters of last resort is x and the number of estimated survivors is y > x that obviously there will be a need to supply other locations.

Chertoff and Brown claim that they were surprised that the levees broke, as they initially had appeared to hold. Why are the two people who are most tasked with anticipating the worst case talking about the worst case taking them completely by surprise? Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Tim - you’ve got to be kidding me. On Thursday afternoon, after MSM informed Chertoff and Brown about the convention center, what did they do? They made food drops by helicopter. The lack of food drops had zero to do with some idea that withholding food and water was for these people’s own good, and everything to do with the fact that they had no idea those people were there. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the facts.

Tim - absolutely the majority of the blame falls on the local response. That does nothing to absolve the failures that the feds did make, though, and it is far more beneficial to the rest of the United States to focus on the federal failures, because those are the failures the rest of the United States can fix.

Its easy to be an expert after the fact.

You know that Nagin mobilized buses on Sunday at around noon to move people to the Superdome. This came 2 and half hours after at the urging of the President that mandatory evacuations should take place. Oddly, he didn’t use any of those buses to move people out of the city.

Where were those buses going to go to?

And who would have driven those buses? The day before the storm hits, people are trying to get themselves and their families out and situated.

Again, where do you take roughly 10,000 people on roughly 200 buses the day before the storm was going to hit?

Baton Rouge? Nope, they were in the path of the storm themselves and didnt have the capability of sheltering and feeding 10,000 people.

Any other city to the immediate west or northwest (and out of the storms path) of New Orleans was out of the question, because none of them are large enough with the ability to accomodate 10,000 people.

And unless there is the unlikely scenario that there is time and things are organized enough to make multiple trips to and from New Orleans, thats still only 10,000 people. What about the other 100,000+ people?

Just stupid. The mayor did all he could with what resources he had. He needed outside help, it was obvious. The state and federal government failed him and the city. I actually think his emotional speech woke up some people.

And you guys are assholes for criticizing him. Try putting yourself into that situation and see if you do everything perfect enough to escape criticism. It cant be done. The man just lost his beloved city and all you guys can do is rip him.

So typical…

The premise that this is somehow NAgins fault is ludicrous. He was working night and day on the evacuation, and did, in fact, use buses, as likns abonve have shown. It was FEMA that sat on their thumbs, as anyone who was paying attention would be willing to admit. Take of the partisan glasses, it’s time to face the truth.

It was the White House that got in the way far more than local effeorts. Other states tried to help and move their Nat’l Guard and (more importantly) equipment into LA, but the White House needed to sign off on it. They signed off on it on Thurs

Here is another source for info. on the measures they were following prior to the storm. Nagin was doing what he could with the resouces he had:

Link

Nagin also dispatched police and firefighters to rouse people out with sirens and bullhorns, and even gave them the authority to commandeer vehicles to aid in the evacuation.

The city arranged buses to take people to 10 last-resort shelters, including the Superdome.

FEMA and the White House were not doing what they could with the resources they had, and it was their job. They fell down on the job. Blaming Nagin or the Gov. or whoever is just petty partisanship. Nagin wasn’t perfect, but at least he acted immediately and did what he could, which is far more than can be said for the Feds.

Just thought I’d point out what appear to be a bunch more small school buses a short distance down the freeway southwest of the main lot.

Buyo;Razzy;Mr. Silly…

It is obvious from your comments, that ya’ll are ignorant of ‘the separation of powers’ and how our Federal and State governments work. If you did, you would not have made the comments you have! If you remain in your ignorance… its of your own choosing.

Thanks for the count. I took it further. If you had taken the people to Baton Rouge only 80 miles from New Oleans and the trip takes about 2 hrs one way. Then on the return trip the buses were loaded with water etc. Unload their load, then another to load another 60 people another 2 hrs to drive. As a result, dropping the people at the Baton Rouge fairgrounds with 146 buses : 150,000 people transported! Now for the biggest issue. Why haven’t we heard any of this in the national news media as well as the pictures? I’d say based on the Louisana Evacution plan that states: ‘The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating’… Some people other than the Federal govt. need to be asked these questions.

It is simply staggering that people would rather sit here criticizing the Mayor than actually doing something to help the flood victims.

It is staggering the depths to which people will sink to defend the Bush Administration. Dick Cheney could sodomize your 11 year old son and you would still think is was the shiznizzle.

Regarding the buses, there were not enough buses to evacuate 100,000 people. It would not have been safe on the road. They would not have known where it would be safe to go.

Katrina was an epic storm, the likes of which no one has seen. Evidence to that fact is that they had to bring in the Coast Guard, the Navy, and active duty soldiers. All of these measures clearly exceed the jurisdiction of any mayor or governor.

Duh.

Mr. Silly, your comments ignore numerous news reports of Nagin and Blanco’s inaction - Blanco herself admitted that it took a phone call from the President to get her and Nagin to order mandatory evacuation. Further, Nagin was whining about a lack of buses because he had already incompetently lost literally hundreds of buses.

Philly, it is your comment that is astonishing. I had no intention of criticizing Blanco and Nagin until they began blaming their failures on others. Nagin himself was whining about not having buses after losing hundreds by failing to move them. New Orleans by its own planning knew it had to survive for 3 or 4 days before Federal aid could arrive - its part of the standards they were supposed to plan for.

It is Nagins responsibility to enact disaster plans and then escalate those plans up the chain of command, which includes calling for Federal assistance. As multiple sites can display, Nagin didn’t even follow his own disaster plan, Gov. Blanco had to be told to evacuate her largest city, and by then of course it was probably too little too late. Those buses sat idle while people were shuffled to the superdome instead of out of the state or city to higher ground. The key disaster waiting to happen was flooding of the city, not the hurricane itself.

Disaster planners should have taken into account that a class 4/5 hurricane would breach the levees, yet the mayor, governor and multiple local authorities did nothing about mitigating that impending disaster.

Yes FEMA was slow to respond, but such is the nature of a large beuracracy. Its the mayor and governors duty as the leaders of thier city/state to mobilize disaster plans that help the poorest of their people. Its readily apparent that in this case, no such plan was enacted.

I would also note, I have yet to see anyone in the mainstream press ask Nagin about those buses, yet Tim Russert felt it was his duty to hammer Chertoff this morning over some things that were clearly out of his control.

loboinok, the “separation of powers” are spelled out at the DHS home page.

“In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation.”

So was bringing in the Navy, the Coast Guard, and active duty soldiers part of the standard evacuation plan?

Was telling the Red Cross not to go in to hospitals where babies on ventilators were suffering part of the evacuation plan?

I can’t beleive I am doing this but I quote Newt Gingrich: “”I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years… .…because if we can’t respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we’re prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?”

Philly,

The governor has the sole responsibility of declaring a location a disaster zone, and calling out that states national guard, and enforcing an evacuation.

Agreed. As things are playing out, it certainly seems as if the Governor and FEMA are the ones who bear the major part of the responsibility for the response snafus.

The Governor gets off the hook a little I suppose because the situation required more than just calling in the National Guard. The Navy, the Coast Guard, and the Army had to get involved. Evacuees had to be taken to over a dozen other states. The hurricane caused devastation in four states. This was undeniably a national crisis, and it will continue to be one.

I still maintain that the response was only part of the problem. Decades of policies set the stage for this one. Poverty, readily accessible handguns, a decaying infrastructure all caused this problem.

The Mayor knew he needed buses to get people from Skydome to Houston. And, as his various pre-storm evacuation statements show, he knew that the locations of “last resort” were inadequate for accomodating even a small volume of people for even a few hours. He knew that at least 100,000 people in his city did not have the means to independently move themselves out to safer ground.

And he had local buses at his disposal. He knew that as well.

But command broke down rapidly and it was up to the locals, on the spot, to compensate, improvise, whatever, to get people into available buses and out of town. Some people did this sort fo thing — without authority — to survive. A little coordination was not beyond the capabilities of local stageing areas as we can see from the movement of people to the Skydome. That much happened, right? But how many people were bussed out of the city?

Some buses appear to have left as per the largely empty lot at the Almonaster facility. Some buses appear to have been used to do what could have been done with another 600 buses that were left unused. THAT is a localized problem. It would not have taken a presidential order to implement the plan, or some other improvised solution, to use what was on hand. The purpose would have been to move people into structures, on safer ground, that would have protected them from the winds of the hurricane, not the water of a potential flooding. This much was not unforeseen — by the locals.

The benchmark is what has happened in other locations when such a natural disaster approached. Why does anyone want to make the local authorities in NO the only exception to 1) preparing adequately (not heorically) and 2) executing an obvious escape plan?

JYB There is a THIRD Bus facilty just off I-10, its at the corner of Eads and Abundance Street, just southwest of your picture.

The reflexive, opportunistic and craven critics of the President do not seem to understand that FEMA cannot crank up at the snap of a finger. This is what the Washington Post link text wrote about what FEMA tells local and state governments:

“the federal plan advises state and local emergency managers not to expect federal aid for 72 to 96 hours, and base their own preparedness efforts on the need to be self-sufficient for at least that period.”

If you start counting from Monday afternoon - when it became clear the levee had been breached - a time frame of 96 hours is Friday afternoon. FEMA was there, and conditions improved dramtically by then. FEMA did as their guidelines say they will, even in the face of this unprecidented disaster.

Stop blaming FEMA and Bush. Start looking at who was supposed to be responsible for those 96 hours.

Question for you all. My posts criticizing Mayor Nagin’s failure to use public transportation to evacuate the city appeared first on my blog at http://www.BigCitiesBigBoxes.com. That was before I found out about the information and images here at JunkyardBlog. My posts also appear on http://www.BlogCritics.com. One person who commented at BlogCritics said that NOLA had decided not to evacuate all those people from New Orleans before the storm, and that the Red Cross had approved that decision. Can this be true? Does anyone know about any evidence?

Even FEMA isnt designed to function in the abscence of local command and control.

You should lso know that Nagin is the first mayor worth a poop the city has had in 20 years after the notorious Morial regime, a bunch of thugs in suits who are probably 25% responsible for the system being as screwed up as it is. He actually did a hell of a job, considering the forces of “Good Old Boys” allied against him in the city.

In his first month in office he arrested about a hundred people in City Hall for corruption, and in the last gubernatorial election supported Bobby Jindal, the REPUBLICAN candidate for governor, alienating himself from half the city’s voters and from ALL the black (dem) vote.

The city screwed itself organizationally, since the people actually ARE kinda lazy and corrupt, but the freaking FEMA and other national-level “organizations” really dropped the ball. Don’t attach the mayor’s name to that group of morons.

So say what you wish, but you are jumping to partisan conclusions.

I should know.

David Independent Formerly of Uptown New Orleans (as of 8-31-05) Currently eating crappy (non-fattening) food in Alabama

Achilea:”Even less so is basing that claim on the theory that being President makes one omniscient and omnipotent.” Maybe not, but sentient and competent would be a start.

Aside from cheap shots, I feel this is such a partisan forum that there is no chance of persuading you that it is obviously the job of the president to be quickly across major issues that can destroy the lives of large numbers of his citizens. The separation of powers is a red herring. Bush has acted now and in so doing demonstrated that he could have acted previously. If he had been across this issue, he would have been able to get over any constitutional issues very quickly (some of you are even claiming he ordered the evacuation, in which case he was already transgressing those boundaries from the start). There has been no legal battle. Instead, there were repeated pleas over several days from local representatives asking for federal help.It didn’t come. Sure， people may have made mistakes locally, although this partisan attempt by dry people to cover the presidents back by attacking some very wet people who were in the teeth of a debilitating natural disaster is not a pretty sight. If the main federal disaster management body, responsible for reaction to major terrorist attacks as well as hurricanes, is not designed to act independently of local command and control, it obviously should be and whoever is responsible for it should have made it so. What do you think catastrophic disasters do to local command and control! This kind of excuse making, as I said, is pathetic.

FSE…

The Stafford Act (§401 and 501) requires that: “All requests for a declaration by the President that a major disaster or emergency exists shall be made by the Governor [chief executive] of the affected State.” A State also includes the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Federated States of Micronesia and the Republic of the Marshall Islands. The Governor’s request is made through the regional FEMA office. State, local, and Federal officials conduct a preliminary damage assessment (PDA) to estimate the extent of the disaster and its impact on individuals and public facilities. The information gathered during the PDA documents the severity and magnitude of the event and is included in the Governor’s request. Normally, the PDA is completed prior to the submission of the Governor’s request. However, when an obviously severe or catastrophic event occurs, the Governor’s request may be submitted prior to the PDA. Nonetheless, the Governor must still make the request and damage assessments are still conducted.

The Govenor didn’t do it and the mayor didn’t do it… they were afraid of the legal ramifications and were too busy consulting lawyers.

Ironically, they both will be doing alot more of that in the months to come.

Irregardless…the President can not just take over a State without a request to do so by the Govenor or without or declaring Martial Law.

Buyo, It is Mayor Nagin himself who says that you are all wet. He was shown on CNN describing the meeting between himself, President Bush and Gov Blanco. Nagin said that when Bush proposed a reform of the chain of command that Gov. Blanco said it would take her 24 hours to make a decision.

Ok, if you can’t take it from raving pinkos like myself, maybe you might be able to swallow it from a true conservative. Greg Djerejian on how a lack of accountability has become standard operating procedure with this Administration. Colossal missteps are made (no serious attention paid to what might happen if the levees were breached, no thought of moving to expeditiously evacuate the Superdome, no apprecation that basic law and order might be grossly imperiled if the city became submerged in floodwaters, no contingency planning for an insurgency in Iraq, no appreciation of the full ramifications of tossing aside the Geneva Conventions) and time and again there is a staggering lack of accountability.. He says as a previous Bush supporter he has finally reached his “bursting point”. He continues: “There was massive culpability, to be sure, at the local and state level as well. But, make no mistake, the federal response during the first week was grotesquely amateur. Particularly with FEMA, of course, but also at the now so risibly named Department of Homeland Security. The government failed in its most fundamental duty—ensuring the basic physical safety of its citizens. And it failed miserably. Does anyone have confidence that, tomorrow say, if Tulsa or Peoria or Dallas or Chicago where attacked by a chemical or biological weapon—that our government would be able to mount an effective response?.” It is clear that this guy cannot be dismissed as a Bush hater. He is looking at this square on rather than seeking refuge in pathetic searches for yellow buses and legal small print. The President of the United states is clearly accountable (as others may be too) if large numbers of his people die because of Government inactivity when the federal government could have done something about. Forget about who has to ask who first, that, as you demonstrate by quoting the claim that Bush insisted on the evacuation first, is jsut a blind alley. Power doesn‘t work like that. The truth is that Bush could have done something. He didn’t. Not for the first time, he fiddled while Rome burned and Greg Djerejian, unlike many people here, has the honesty to rise above his partisan allegiances and see that reality.

I’m on the board of our local transit agency. The PIC of buses parked face to tail appears to be mostly 40’ buses with maybe a dozen 30’ in there as well. The forty footer typicaly has seating for 40/43, with standing around the 65 number you used. The seats and tires are not for long distance, high speed running but at least if these were operable buses, 5500 would have gotten out along with the buses for future use.

A big problem with evacuation plans using mass transit is that the driver may just park the bus when they get to wherever after the first trip out.

Thank you for the info. Stephan, City of Cinn.

Perhaps too late, but better late than never.

It seems that a few of you are getting quite upset at the blame FEMA is taking for this. You’re trying to shift the blame to the city somehow but not doing a very good job. The last time I checked the death and devastation of New Orleans had absolutely nothing to do with the people not making it out of the city. Many of the people were alive and waiting for rescue the day after the hurricane hit. The gruesome and harrowing images that we are all seeing are a direct result of the appalling lack of a response on behalf of FEMA. I’m all for President Bush and I am glad that (at least initially) he took FEMA Brown/Chertoff to task. He needs to get back on the ball and sacrifice them for the good of the administration. Incompetence like that cannot be tolerated.

those are 72 passenger bus’s and that is just the seat not including the isle.

I’m wondering, prior to katrina’s landfall where exactly do you suggest that Nagin evacuate his citizen’s to? the inn at the Astrodome was not yet accepting visitors. The mayor of New Orleans can only put people in New Orleans. If thousands of evacuees start showing up in your city (prior to Katrina) wouldn’t you be pissed?

And for all the die-hard Bush fans: I admire your loyalty. However, the world’s only superpower took five days to gain control after a natural disaster within its’ own borders. Bush was on watch (vacation, whatever)at the time. Katrina will make history as well as our handling of it.

JB said “those are 72 passenger bus’s and that is just the seat not including the isle.”

All right, I’ll bite. What make are these and how long are they? You’re not counting the yellow school buses are you?

Stephan

Re: MCG You asked about the Red Cross and NO evacuation. I believe that their statement was that they approved of the evacuation of the people of New Orleans to the Superdome. The point was that even though it lost power and there were only limited supplies there, the ‘dome is on higher ground than most parts of NO and is more likely to withstand a ‘cane than most buildings in NO. Likely that it is also helpful to have all evacuees in one place as well for food/medical/transport purposes.

Re: loboinok As for martial law - there is no such legal concept in the US. I don’t think in LA either, but could be wrong. I’m not seeing the need for it either. As long as the WH approves the nat’l guard call-ups and FEMA has its act together things should run smoothly. Calling for “martial law” however you define it, doesn’t solve the response problem we had in NO.

Here is a link to the Red Cross statement I mentioned above.

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html

It’s a shame school busses weren’t used to evacuate people before the storm, but those busses were only good for a single trip—the reason 80% of New Orleans was able to evacuate was because of the contraflow plan that was in effect (link). Turning those busses around to pick up more people was not an option, because all roads were leading out of the area.

Furthermore, my inlaws evacuated NO early Saturday morning to north of Baton Rouge and said the trip took them around six hours, not the two hours that some armchair emergency planners are now using for their calculations.

I agree that it would have been a good thing to use school busses to evacuate those without cars, but, realistically, it would only have made a small difference.

Interesting timeline of activity and inactivity here

I don’t what it leaves out and how biased it is but I think something like this should be done on wikipedia or somewhere so we can get away from the excuse making and have a level look at what actually happened. It is clear there was a lot of inactivity.

I’m too ignorant of the details to comment on the logistics, but it seems more than reasonable to expect that New Orleans officials would have had a mass evacuation plan in place which would have utilized such resources as public transportation and schoolbuses to the best of their ability. Let’s not forget: they are aware of the fact that they are below sea level, that hurricanes pose a significant danger, and that the levees could not handle hurricanes above a category 3. Why, then, did they not have an organized evacuation plan which could have emptied as much of the city as possible?

It seems that many of the people defending the mayor of NO are excusing him because either 1)the buses would have been of little or no use, 2)there was no place to go, or 3)the logistics would have been difficult given the time frame, so it made no difference. In response to the first claim I must say that, even if the whole city could not have been evacuated, some successful effort to move a portion of the population could have been made. A lot of people did manage to make it out of the city on their own, so why would it have been unreasonable to move lots of people in buses?

As for those who wonder where those in the buses could have gone, the answer is: anywhere outside of the danger zone. The number one priority was to get people out of immediate danger. Even if no one had any idea of where to go, that is no excuse for staying behind.

Finally, as for those who think the logistics involved in handling such a procedure are too difficult, there are two things to keep in mind. First, it was the job of state and local officials to have a plan in place. Difficult or not, they were in the best position to know what resources were available and what routes could be taken. Second, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If it’s not reasonable to expect state or local officials to handle the logistics, why is it more reasonable to expect the feds, who are necessarily further removed from the situation, to do any better? Are they supposed to develop and execute a detailed evacuation plan for every single community in the country?

Peace,

David

I dunno, but it looks to me like the buses are flooded. Even if the buses could have been driven out of there, with no comminications, how would you get in touch with drivers and get them to the to the buses? Do we even know who had the keys?

The evacuation was actually the most efficient and successful in U.S. history. Only when the locals were totally overwhelmed by the magnitude of the event, did things break down. I think, when all is said and done, it will be determined that delay in calling in the military was a crucial mistake. Once the army got in, things went really well.

There is no way that everything can work well, let alone perfectly, in a disaster of this magnitude. But regardless of your political pursuasion, you have to be disappointed that the feds were so slow to recognize the magnitude of what was happening. FEMA should have had somebody watching television.

Somebody in the cabinet should have recognized that this was beyond FEMA, the Guard, and local officials to cope with, and advised the President to federalize the operation by immediately bringing in the military and nationalizing the state national guard units under one commander.

I live near the affected area and have talked to people that were sent in to help. Universally, they complain that there was way too much duplication of effort and no central authority.

That said, the response, mainly due to military presence, was exemplary by the end of the week.

If one compares what was done well with what went wrong, I challenge you to find a better outcome in any disaster of this magnitude anywhere in the world.

David, sure maybe in retrospect the NO mayor might have done things differently but he had very little time, he was in the teeth of a hurricane and he had a few hundred buses and drivers all over the place (who were themselves preparing for a hurricane. The police didn:t even turn up for duty and their contracts say they should. Whereas I presume relatively low paid bus drivers have no emergency services aspect to their contracts). Bush, on the other hand, had days and days to do something and he didn:t. He also had all the resources of a fully composed superpower at his beck and call.

Regarding some of the idiots trashing here: 1. DHS was not responsible for doing, but for ensuring that the officials were trained. Can’t you read your own link? DHS made sure NOLA had a plan, but they cannot remove a mayor for incompetence until he is proven incompetent. 2. Where to go with the busses? Any place is better than the bottom of a dry lake. Its a FACT that as hurricanes move inland they lose power. You still get the massive rain, but the winds die down considerably. Just look at the storm map for Katrina, 100 miles inland it was down to nothing. 3. Personal accountability. Thats the bottom line, only you are ultimately responsible for you. Would you be crazy enough to sit inside a burning house and wait for the fiore department? Or would you get yourself and your family out of immediate danger? never mind that its a blizzard outside, you get out.